Curse

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 14, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by GloryFox

and people in PvP wonder why there is so much hate from the PvE crowd.

Really? I don't know a single PvP-er who gives a crap what PvE-ers think at all...

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

And btw necros quite own in pve 3 n/rts heros = ownage

I've played that build and it is incredably defensive which is what makes it good, it basically resorts to minions and wanding to deal dmg IMO. Not to mention that it is PvE and takes absolutely no skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

and the necro is also the only profession that can make paragons stop spamming shouts ---> vocal minority *shivers* to cruel...

And I can simply interrupt it with disrupting throw, or just bring a P/Me with power return, power spike, or web of disruption and, at the slight change you do get a spell off, I can bring Expel Hexes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Also some people still don't seem to get the point of paragons... paragons own in groups and that is also the only way they can own... a paragon in a one on one is pretty death (well his biggest asset: namely his shouts will kill his energy).

Correct. A-net designed them this way. Paragons are supposed to be the "leaders" (motivation, command, leadership). Leaders are nothing without their followers... get the picture. But who makes judgment upon a skill or a class based upon how well they do in a 1v1 situation??? Scrubs do.

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

EDIT: People are saying that "Incoming" is a bad skill. You couldn't be more wrong! You obviously don't know how to use it, for the same scrubby reasons above. Incoming is a great spike deterrent. Imagine you are fighting a spike group in a GvG, the Paragon can use Incoming right before the enemy team uses their spiking skills so, when the spike hits it's target, it does significantly less damage, thus saving the targeted player from a quick yet very painful death. The only reason why this skill isn't of use in the current meta is because spikes are no where near prevalent enough to necessitate an elite skill to deter them. If, some day, spiking does because a major factor in GvG, you may see more balanced groups bringing this elite.
GG

Yeah dude good point, a Paragon can use their elite slot to stop a spike every 20 seconds. Not to mention that some spikes steal health, so this does absolutely nothing for it.

That is a great spike deterrent?
GG

Razz Thom · Dec 14, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Wow... So much fail... you are sooooo baed!

Paragons are one of the most imbalanced classes in all of guild wars especially when spoken about in GvG.
The more paragons a team has is directly related to how much spiking power the overall build will have.
Another Great thing about paragons is that they have other purposes besides damage dealing that can make them that much better. A paragon can bring interrupts, defensive skills, and enchantment removal. All of these things are vital to a GvG team build and having them on paragons means the team will have that much more pressure to go along with their shutdown capabilities.

Before flaming what I am saying and telling me I am wrong, I want you to ask someone that is an experienced GvG player if paragons are significantly weaker than other classes. I can almost guarantee that they will be incredibly outspoken about how paragons are far superior to other classes.

Ask that same player who IS a weaker class and I can almost guarantee they will tell you the Necromancer is. Unfortunately, there are so many RA and HB scrubs in this forum that the Necromancer's utter failure in GvG is overlooked.

I predict that the only reason why people that visit these forums say that paragons are weak is because they only play RA, TA, HB, or PvE. My response to thses people is:

If you play RA, TA, or HB --> In a 4 man team, paragons are going to be weaker because their shouts are less effective because there are only 4 people for them to be put on. Also, the paragon's shutdown capabilities are somewhat limited to shutting down Aegises, Diversions, Defensive anthems, and other key skills that don't see as much play in the low level, arena style PvP matches.

If you play PvE --> You use mending wammos and think that Assassins are bad because they don't "tank" well... so your opinion simply doesn't matter.

EDIT: People are saying that "Incoming" is a bad skill. You couldn't be more wrong! You obviously don't know how to use it, for the same scrubby reasons above. Incoming is a great spike deterrent. Imagine you are fighting a spike group in a GvG, the Paragon can use Incoming right before the enemy team uses their spiking skills so, when the spike hits it's target, it does significantly less damage, thus saving the targeted player from a quick yet very painful death. The only reason why this skill isn't of use in the current meta is because spikes are no where near prevalent enough to necessitate an elite skill to deter them. If, some day, spiking does because a major factor in GvG, you may see more balanced groups bringing this elite.

GG

Wow all that crap you were spewwing and for some reason I don't see your guild tag in the tourney listing. Maybe that's because they only list good guilds? Hmmm, so seems to me you are an invisible nobody and your opinion doesn't count. loser.

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 14, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terriban

Yeah dude good point, a Paragon can use their elite slot to stop a spike every 20 seconds.

That is a great spike deterrent?
GG

Yes...

Have you ever tried to spike through "Incoming"? It is impossible. I could see myself using two paragons in a GvG Automated Tournament against a guild that I know is using a ranger spike or something. They wouldn't be able to kill anything and we would roll over them and probably end up beating them at the stand in about 5 minutes. I know this scenario will probably never happen because no one uses spikes in GvG, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. The purpose of me saying this is that every skill does have it's purpose and Incoming is good at what it does...
GG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razz Thom

Wow all that crap you were spewwing and for some reason I don't see your guild tag in the tourney listing. Maybe that's because they only list good guilds? Hmmm, so seems to me you are an invisible nobody and your opinion doesn't count. loser.

Well, that was an unnecessary post and quite hypocritical I might add... Wow. BTW, my guild disbanded and I am now in "Your Mom Is My Epic Mount [EPIC]. I don't see why it matters since you didn't even argue anything that the post said, all you did was attack my credibility... which is the weakest, dirtiest, and most unethical thing someone could do to try to sway others' opinions.
/ignoring you from now on

Razz Thom · Dec 14, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Incoming is good at what it does...
GG

Yep it is awesome at sucking!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Well, that was an unnecessary post and quite hypocritical I might add... Wow. BTW, my guild disbanded and I am now in "Your Mom Is My Epic Mount [EPIC]. I don't see why it matters since you didn't even argue anything that the post said, all you did was attack my credibility... which is the weakest, dirtiest, and most unethical thing someone could do to try to sway others' opinions.

Wasn't trying to sway anything, just pointing out the fact that you chimed in with your nonsensicle tirade about how PvEers don't count and how you are mister uber knowledge about GvG and somehow I don't see you in any GvG winners circles. Therefor you fail so STFU and go wish you were better somewhere else. Next time you desire to troll a thread, make sure you can adequately deal with the repurcussions.

GG
LOL

P.S. Did you happen to notice that you brought your crappy PvP attitude into a PvE forum? Dummy.

wazz · Dec 14, 2007, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

1)Really? I don't know a single PvP-er who gives a crap what PvE-ers think at all...

2)I've played that build and it is incredably defensive which is what makes it good, it basically resorts to minions and wanding to deal dmg IMO. Not to mention that it is PvE and takes absolutely no skill.

3)And I can simply interrupt it with disrupting throw, or just bring a P/Me with power return, power spike, or web of disruption and, at the slight change you do get a spell off, I can bring Expel Hexes.

4)Correct. A-net designed them this way. Paragons are supposed to be the "leaders" (motivation, command, leadership). Leaders are nothing without their followers... get the picture. But who makes judgment upon a skill or a class based upon how well they do in a 1v1 situation??? Scrubs do.

1)hmmm lmao that is like confirming what gloryfox said

2) pve takes absolutly no skill... *bangs head on wall* so not true ... try getting off the beginners island/getting out of pre-searing and putting HM... some areas are actually prety hard and require some skills.

3) you stated yourself that paragons power increases with the amount of paragons in the group.... now your talking about 1 necro .... so what about talking multiple necros just like you take multiple paragons ?
And... if you go p/me it cancel out all the warrior shouts. A group consisting of paragons is quite powerfull but it still can be defeaten. Another thing you want to devote almost your entire skill bar towards the canceling of one skill ?

4) well... alot of people. For instance for paragons it is near the inpossible to farm. Wich is a big disadvantage (in pve).
Another thing I don't think splitting tactics will be verry affictive with paragons in the groups ( in pvp, I never pvped but I have pved long enough to understand how killer paragon and energy is).
So using split tactics might hurt the paragons alot.
There are ways to counter a paragon just like any other proffesion. Anet would never make one proffesion better than all the rest. I suppose you just haven't run into a decent teambuild that can counter paragons effectivly.

Another thing: for gods sake 3 seconds it lasts !!!!!
And a recharge time of 20 seconds!!!

You might be able to cancel out one spike (of the opposing party isn't smart enough to wait with spiking until incoming has stopt) but than you got 17 seconds of free spiking (with one paragon).

Also people complain about us paragons using a build that they refer to as 'god mode'. I think you have been using that build for to long m8.

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 14, 2007, 08:06 PM // 20:06

I don't think having a bunch of paragons in a single group is a good idea. I don't think anyone is trying to make that claim. (unless they are doing a para-spike in HA or something idk).

Paragons are not great at splitting, your absolutely right. That is why most balanced teams will take a ranger and a defensive flag runner if they have a paragon. The ranger, and a flag runner will be able to defend most splits. If they can't hold off a specific split, then the stand team can always split back a warrior without sacrificing too much damage because of the presence of the paragon. That is what makes paragons so good. 1 warrior, 1 paragon, and 1 Mesmer can still get off a pretty decent adren spike at the stand while a ranger, warrior, and runner defend against a split.

Incoming should be used when you know the spike is coming, not just whenever it recharges. The way you use it is, when you see the other team casting the first skill they use to spike (wearying strike, forked arrow/duel shot, whatever it may be) you use Incoming immediately, so when the spike hits, the person being spiked already has an instant pre-prot. The reason why it is good is because it can't be countered (other than vocal minority but seriously, who uses that...)

The recharge time definitely puts a damper on this skill and I think Izzy should buff it to a 12 sec recharge personally but w/e. Like I said before, if you know you are going up against a spike team, bring two Incoming paragons and its GG.

EDIT: I soloed Ferin from Delta Formation [DF] in a rated GvG match, a few weeks ago, with my Cruel Spear Paragon so at least we have living proof that paragons (and me) aren't all bad...

Racthoh · Dec 14, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Have you ever tried to spike through "Incoming"? It is impossible. I could see myself using two paragons in a GvG Automated Tournament against a guild that I know is using a ranger spike or something. They wouldn't be able to kill anything and we would roll over them and probably end up beating them at the stand in about 5 minutes. I know this scenario will probably never happen because no one uses spikes in GvG, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. The purpose of me saying this is that every skill does have it's purpose and Incoming is good at what it does...GG

Or I could use two copies of Shield's Up! and not bring a terrible elite. Or even a single paragon with Defensive Anthem and Shield's Up!.

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

EDIT: I soloed Ferin from Delta Formation [DF] in a rated GvG match, a few weeks ago, with my Cruel Spear Paragon so at least we have living proof that paragons (and me) aren't all bad...

What the hell?

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 14, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Or I could use two copies of Shield's Up! and not bring a terrible elite. Or even a single paragon with Defensive Anthem and Shield's Up!.

You could do that... If you wanted to completely devote your entire bar to defense. That's also assuming that you are fighting a team that is using physicals.

What about Rit spike or something... I know Incoming is very situational and it NEEDS a buff but it still can be used quite effectively in GvG matches especially against specific builds during ATs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

What the hell?

Soloed (past tense of solo) --> alone; to do something without a companion or partner. In this case, killing Ferin without help of my teammates.

Proof --> evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

I heard dictionary.com was good...

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Soloed (past tense of solo) --> alone; to do something without a companion or partner. In this case, killing Ferin without help of my teammates.

Proof --> evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

I heard dictionary.com was good...

Maybe you should also learn that the only thing that winning a 1v1 proves is that you are a moron.

Since 1v1 proves something, we can all stop using Warriors now, because a Necromancer with Insidious Parasite and Enfeebling Touch pretty much owns them.

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 14, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Maybe you should also learn that the only thing that winning a 1v1 proves is that you are a moron. Since 1v1 proves something, we can all stop using Warriors now, because a Necromancer with Insidious Parasite and Enfeebling pretty much owns them.

omg, stop posting and /uninstall your Internet Browser...

I didn't 1v1 Ferin. I killed him in an 8v8 GvG match without the aid of any other person or NPC on my team and it wasn't VoD either... WITH A PARAGON. The only reason why I am making this comment is to show that:
1. Paragons deal great amounts of damage (enough to kill a warrior in the number 1 ranked guild.
2. That I am not the suck-age that stupid people are accusing me of, because I can back up my statements in GvGs.
I also realize that the only reason why you are making these worthless annoying comments is so you can somehow make yourself feel superior to others but the fact of the matter is, you don't know shit.
I don't want to talk about it anymore because it isn't exactly related to the topic OMG.

Terraban · Dec 14, 2007, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

omg, stop posting and /uninstall your Internet Browser...

I didn't 1v1 Ferin. I killed him in an 8v8 GvG match without the aid of any other person or NPC on my team and it wasn't VoD either... WITH A PARAGON. The only reason why I am making this comment is to show that:
1. Paragons deal great amounts of damage (enough to kill a warrior in the number 1 ranked guild.
2. That I am not the suck-age that stupid people are accusing me of, because I can back up my statements in GvGs.
I also realize that the only reason why you are making these worthless annoying comments is so you can somehow make yourself feel superior to others but the fact of the matter is, you don't know shit.
I don't want to talk about it anymore because it isn't exactly related to the topic OMG.

Will you have my babies?

Or are you old enough yet? I don't need to make comments to feel superior to you m8, your comments already make EVERYONE feel superior.

Tyla · Dec 14, 2007, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

I don't need to make comments to feel superior to you m8, your comments already make EVERYONE feel superior.

"'Incoming!' is good" is already enough....3 sec antispike 20 sec recharge(agreeing with what you said) - why not use spirit bond/infuse it?
plus the fact that spikes are usually like 5 secs recharge.
and...it aint gunna do any good vs a bloodspike
EDIT:added the punctuation properly lulz

wazz · Dec 14, 2007, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

1)I don't think having a bunch of paragons in a single group is a good idea. I don't think anyone is trying to make that claim. (unless they are doing a para-spike in HA or something idk).

2)Paragons are not great at splitting, your absolutely right. That is why most balanced teams will take a ranger and a defensive flag runner if they have a paragon. The ranger, and a flag runner will be able to defend most splits. If they can't hold off a specific split, then the stand team can always split back a warrior without sacrificing too much damage because of the presence of the paragon. That is what makes paragons so good. 1 warrior, 1 paragon, and 1 Mesmer can still get off a pretty decent adren spike at the stand while a ranger, warrior, and runner defend against a split.

3)Incoming should be used when you know the spike is coming, not just whenever it recharges. The way you use it is, when you see the other team casting the first skill they use to spike (wearying strike, forked arrow/duel shot, whatever it may be) you use Incoming immediately, so when the spike hits, the person being spiked already has an instant pre-prot. The reason why it is good is because it can't be countered (other than vocal minority but seriously, who uses that...)

4)The recharge time definitely puts a damper on this skill and I think Izzy should buff it to a 12 sec recharge personally but w/e. Like I said before, if you know you are going up against a spike team, bring two Incoming paragons and its GG.

5)EDIT: I soloed Ferin from Delta Formation [DF] in a rated GvG match, a few weeks ago, with my Cruel Spear Paragon so at least we have living proof that paragons (and me) aren't all bad...

1) according to me that was what you where claiming. You where saying the more paragon the more spikes (and in that way the deadlyer the team).

2) so there you have a way to annoy a full paragon team... your problem is solved. Anyway a paragon is having some energy problems when he isn't standing with atleast 6 other persons backing him up. As far as I understood you previous post you seemed to be talking about full paragon teams (or atleast teams containing 4+).

3)I know but their is no way you can predict it, there are 8 persons in the opposing team and each one can start a spike. Well if you wanne counter a paragon shouting use vocal minority... if you not want to use it, than it is your own fault not anets (or of the paragon).

4) the skill will never be buffed IMO it is a 'death' skill. If anet ever buffs the recharge it will be abused like before.

5)You know you counterdict yourself in 2 ways at the same time ?
First you claim that 1v1 doesn't proof anything.
Second you claim that paragons suck at 1v1.
Now you claim paragons are overpowered because you managed to 1 on 1 with someone of the warrior proffesion who is a member of a gvg guild....

Ensign · Dec 14, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

I'd use "Incoming!" if I could get a 3 second duration on it without speccing 12 into Command.

lishi · Dec 14, 2007, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

BTW: the paragon proffesion has on it's own no way to remove hexes *hint hint*

you mean like

Warrior, Ranger,Elementalist,Necro,Assasin,Ritualist?

Followed by dervish who have only a elite skill followed by a 60 second cooldown ...

Basicly only monk and mesmer can remove hex

Racthoh · Dec 14, 2007, 10:22 PM // 22:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You could do that... If you wanted to completely devote your entire bar to defense.

Putting Defensive Anthem and Shield's Up! on my bar doesn't feel like I'm devoting my entire bar to defense. Pretty much every paragon I watch has SoR/BoR, WY/SU!; two skills devoted to defense in some way but are still more than capable of providing solid pressure and spike support. The scenario you proposed was how to stop ranger spike dead in their tracks. I suggest using two slots on one character, you suggest gimping two character's elites devoting attribute points in a weak line.

Also since Incoming! has a mere 3 second duration max it would not be difficult for the rangers to fake a spike to draw out your elite. (although that's probably giving spike teams more credit than they deserve)

Quote:

That's also assuming that you are fighting a team that is using physicals.

Teams that don't run physicals are going to be some gimmick trash like bloodspike, Incoming! isn't going to help there anyway.

kullwarrior · Dec 14, 2007, 11:14 PM // 23:14

PLEASE THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HOW CRAP/GOOD ELITE IN PARA ARE NOT
PARA IS GOOD / BAD IN RA/TA/HA/GVG/PVE/ELITE MISH

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

vocal minority but seriously, who uses that...

Necro does, at least one per team has it just like song of concentration (I play HA, not GVG)

Incoming in my opinion should have alot less recharge time

Quote:

Originally Posted by Change to "Incoming"

ORIGINAL(First official release)
Cost: 5 Energy
Duration: 1...6(0-12command)
Recharge: 20 seconds

November 30
Cost:10
Duration: 1...5(0-12command)
Recharge:20

Feburary 9
Cost: 10
Duration: 1...3(0-12command)
Recharge:20

I wish for
Cost: 5 or 10
Duration: 1/4...2[X](0-12command)
Reduction: 10%-50%[Y](0-12command)
Recharge: 5 seconds
Effect: Target other Ally for the next X Seconds receives Y% less life loss.

I wish it can be similar to "Brace Yourself!" Where it sound like whole team but its single other ally target.

CURRENT

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 15, 2007, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Many of you people read what you want to read and not what I am actually saying so there is no point in arguing anymore because I would just be repeating what I have already said so why even bother. I am so disgusted with the people posting in this thread it's not even funny anymore.

The Paragon elites that I think should be buffed are:
Anthem of Guidance --> should work for next 2 attack skills
"Incoming" --> reduce the recharge to 12 seconds
Angelic Bond --> reduce damage the caster takes (like a normal bond: it is an elite ya know...)
"It's Just a Flesh Wound" --> should offer healing to the ally after conditions are removed.
"The Power is Yours" --> increase recharge to 25. Convert energy degen into health degen.

That is only 5 skills so... to answer the OP... No, I do not think that the paragon has bad elites.
Although I don't consider myself an "expert" on PvE, I do think I know quite a bit about PvP especially in regards to GvG. The most used paragon elite in GvG is Cruel Spear. I have also seen Crip Anthem, Song of Restoration, Anthem of Guidance, and Song of Purification used quite efficiently in various builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Putting Defensive Anthem and Shield's Up! on my bar doesn't feel like I'm devoting my entire bar to defense. Pretty much every paragon I watch has SoR/BoR, WY/SU!

Really??? Who are you watching. The most common Para bar is this:
[skill]Cruel Spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]power spike[/skill][skill]anthem of flame[/skill][skill]"go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]mirror of disenchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
It CAN be run with watch yourself and shields up instead of the mesmer skills (get rid of go for the eyes for another attack skill), but that is only when there is a ranger and a mesmer with a ward of melee pretty much...

So, my count says... 1 excellent elite, 4 good elites, 5 elites that should be buffed, and the rest average. That is a pretty well rounded class of elites IMO.

These are the only "under-powered" skills in the paragon line IMO.

Note: Although these skills are underpowered, that doesn't mean they are useless or should be disregarded. All it means is that, without buffs, they will remain incredibly situational and thus, unused in most team builds.